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The NRC Pathways HSF Study Panel Discussion, Sunday, 10-12-14 October 13, 2014

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The NRC Pathways HSF Study Panel Discussion, Sunday, 10-12-14

Featuring Dr. Jim Logan, Dan Adamo, Dr. John Jurist

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/2334-BWB-2014-10-12.mp3

Your Amazon Purchases Helps Support TSS/OGLF (see Guests: Dan Adamo, Dr. Jim Logan, Dr. John Jurist. Topics: Our three guests reviewed the NRC “Pathways To Exploration HSF study. Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, http://thespaceshow.wordpress.com. Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See http://www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm. For those listening to archives using live365.com and rating the programs, please email me as to why you assign a specific rating to the show. This will help me bring better programming to the audience.

Welcome to this 2.5 hour Space Show Classroom discussion with Dan Adamo, Dr. John Jurist, & Dr. Jim Logan regarding the recently released NRC “Pathways To Exploration: Rationales And Approaches For A U.S. Program Of Human Space Exploration.” You can download the report for free at http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=18801. In addition, the project referred to in the last part of this discussion by Dan and Jim, the “Aquarius interplanetary HSF transport” paper can be freely downloaded at http://www.spaceenterpriseinstitute.org/2014/07/aquarius-a-reusable-water-based-interplanetary-human-spaceflight-transport. Please note that our panel members used cell phones which caused audio issues which you may hear during the discussion. Finally, as this program will also be archived on both The Space Show and The Space Show Classroom blogs, there will be two papers uploaded to each blog, one by Dan Adamo & the other by caller Dr. James Dewar. I will mention both in the summary below. In the first segment, our panel members opened with their perspective on the NRC Pathways HSF study. While there were similarities in their perspectives, there were also noteworthy differences. After this comprehensive introduction, I asked our panel members about the study and space settlement or pioneering. Each panel member had much to say on the settlement issue, including the need to solve the gravity prescription for long duration HSF or settlement. Our panel members said that for the most part, space settlement was out of scope for this report. In this part of the discussion much was said about microgravity issues & the need to do on orbit experiments to determine the HSF gravity prescription. Deimos was discussed as an initial better choice that the surface of Mars re microgravity issues. Our guests spoke to the need of a short arm centrifuge on the ISS. Jim spoke to the specifics of such an experiment such as 1 G at the head., 2.5 g’s at the feet for two hours a day to see how it serves as a microgravity countermeasure. Our panel members mentioned that there already was such a short arm centrifuge built years ago by NASA and Wiley, http://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/slsd/about/divisions/hacd/laboratories/short-arm_centrifuge_laboratory.html. The guests talked about unknown human factor challenges for going to Mars and long duration spaceflight. Jim provided us with interesting statistics on human spaceflight totals since the beginning in 1961. The panel members had much to say about the budget issues discussed in the NRC study. Another point brought up was the study’s assumption that if we are not going to the surface of Mars, why even do HSF? Near the end of the first segment, listener Carl brought up the well known plans for Mars settlement with Elon Musk & SpaceX. This sparked quite the discussion so don’t miss it.

In the second segment, our panel talked about the value of the Pathways study, international partnerships and what they saw as contradictory statements, especially regarding the mission cost impact of such partnerships. John mentioned the study’s reference to NASA education & public outreach which he thought was more focused on STEM & the development of more engineers rather than on educating the general public to be more knowledgeable about science. The panel members noted that there was little attention paid to the societal impact of not even having a human spaceflight program. Dan & Jim agreed on the importance of educational outreach and shared their experiences with us from the employment with NASA. Adrian in San Diego sent in an email suggesting the panel was being pessimistic and that China would not overthink issues and just do missions without full disclosure. All three panel members had much to say in response to Adrian’s charge of being pessimistic. They talked about being reality based, not pessimistic & why it was so important to be reality based. The panel hit back hard on the charge of being pessimistic. Dan & Jim said to be other than realistic was reckless and irresponsible. Jim also said that being called pessimistic suggested to him that reality had violated the person’s ideology. Jim would be happy to debate the issues with anyone in open forum. This discussion brought Jim and Dan to talking about their Aquarius project which you can download at the above URL. They spent some time discussing the benefits of their approach, noting how it addresses & mitigates many of the problems associated with a HSF mission to Mars. They also spoke to the need for nuclear propulsion and talked about using water as fuel and very high ISP ratings with high temperatures. During this discussion, Dr. Jim Dewar called in to suggest their ISP ratings were low, he explained why, and he talked about starting small to start flying and then improving as you go. We did not know it but we lost John from the connection but Jim, Dan, and Dr. Dewar spoke to the NERVA project, and specifics about nuclear propulsion. This advanced nuclear propulsion discussion was close to a half an hour near the end of the program. Dr. Dewar was a guest on the program in 2008 & 2009 regarding nuclear propulsion & its history. He also authored two books on the subject. Use the GuestSearch tool on our website to find his interviews which I suggest you listen to if you have not already done so. I will also upload to both blogs the paper Dr. Dewar referenced in his discussion. After the nuclear discussion, Adrian sent in another email titled “rebuttal.” He challenged the panel members to do the experiments, not just to talk about them. Jim, Dan & I challenged Adrian for his solutions to doing many of the needed & essential experiments. All of the panel members supported doing the needed experiments & have said so for decades. Getting funding for the experiments, NASA approval, etc. is a challenge. I then challenged Adrian to come to The Space Show as a guest with his solutions for doing the essential work & experiments rather than his just talking about how badly they are needed per his second email. I hope Adrian does have answers and will contact me about coming on the show to discuss them with us. Jim & Dan each provided closing comments focusing back on the study report. They thought the report was worth it from the taxpayer perspective and that it would be used for references. Jim did think the report was not as good as other government studies he had seen because it was so speculative, something all three guests addressed in their opening remarks. An 11th hour call came from SLS John to talk about the ISP formula & temperatures Dan and Jim used in their paper Aquarius paper. Dan authorized me to upload to the blog his written comments on the NRC Pathways study so you will find that document on both blogs as well.

Please post comments/questions on The Space Show blog. You can reach the panel members through me.

A Technical Note on Nuclear Rockets-1

PathwaysCommentaryR3

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The Space Show Classroom with Drs. Jurist & Logan, Monday, 1-6-14 January 7, 2014

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The Space Show Classroom with Drs. Jurist & Logan, Monday, 1-6-14

Your Amazon Purchases Can Help Support The Space Show/OGLF (www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm)

Guests: Dr. Jim Logan, Dr. John Jurist.  Topics:  Space advocacy magical/fantasy thinking, radiation, rockets, HSF & more.  Please direct all comments and questions regarding Space Show programs/guest(s) to the Space Show blog, http://thespaceshow.wordpress.com.  Comments and questions should be relevant to the specific Space Show program. Written Transcripts of Space Show programs are a violation of our copyright and are not permitted without prior written consent, even if for your own use. We do not permit the commercial use of Space Show programs or any part thereof, nor do we permit editing, YouTube clips, or clips placed on other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted, but the quote must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact The Space Show for further information. In addition, please remember that your Amazon purchases can help support The Space Show/OGLF. See http://www.onegiantleapfoundation.org/amazon.htm.

We welcomed back Drs. Jurist and Logan to this CLASSROOM program which addressed many issues of the 2 hours 1 minute broadcast.  We started out with Dr. Logan discussing fantasy or magical thinking going back to the influence of a 2001 Space Odyssey movie poster had on him.  From there, Jim went into a discussion about Constellation, then the Space Shuttle as examples of what he was talking about and as to how programs and faulty ideas grow and multiply.  He also talked about life science challenges.  A listener asked him about space politics, then Dr. Jurist offered additional examples with a focus on air launch.  Our guests then discussed thinking based on agendas and ideology.  One of the keys suggested for breaking out of this magical thinking mode involved surrounding yourself with really smart people.  Later, I offered my perspective on that given my own experiences early on in Space Show time and before.   Both Jim and John said a few times that one needs to know his or her limitations.  Our guests then talked due diligence with assumption building, fact checking, disclosures, and more.  I relayed my own wake -up call experience due to Al Zaehringer who was on the show several times years ago before he passed on.  Before the segment ended, Jim told us a story about the Wright Brothers and their Wright Flyer experience.  In our second segment, John Hunt called in to talk about Jim’s Space Shuttle comments.  This was a lengthy discussion with John, Jim, & John Jurist.  Jim talked about advantages with Saturn V including economic advantages over shuttle to LEO.  Subjects of reusability came up along with issues of getting a specific payload to orbit which our guests suggested advocacy often glosses over with facts and trades for payload mass fractions involved in reusability.  Dr. Logan brought up and discussed what he called NASA Brinkmanship Strategy.  Jim then talked about the reality of sending payloads to the ISS using shuttle.   Trent in Australia sent a message about magical thinking with Mars One.  Our last caller was Alan from St. Louis who said John and Jim were too negative in their discussion.  Alan then talked about using smaller rockets over heavy lift and was working to make the case that we have to work with what we have.  He also talked about evolving up from smaller, not starting off with the biggest.  Each of us responded to Alan.  It’s a discussion you do not want to miss.

Please post your comments/questions on either or both The Space Show Blog above or The Space Show Classroom blog, https://spaceshowclassroom.wordpress.com.  You can reach all of the participants including the callers through me at drspace@thespaceshow.com.

Classroom: Dr. Paul Spudis, Dr. Jim Vedda, Friday, 10-19-12 October 20, 2012

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Classroom: Dr. Paul Spudis, Dr. Jim Vedda, Friday, 10-19-12

Cislunar Space Development

Guests: CLASSROOM: Dr. Paul Spudis, Dr. Jim Vedda. Topics: Cislunar space development and economics. You are invited to comment, ask questions, and discuss the Space Show program/guest(s) on the Space Show blogs, http://thespaceshow.wordpress.com and the Classroom blog, https://spaceshowclassroom.wordpress.com. Comments, questions, and any discussion must be relevant and applicable to Space Show programming. Written transcripts of Space Show programs are not permitted without prior written consent from The Space Show (even if for personal use) & are a violation of the Space Show copyright. We do not permit the commercial use of any Space Show program or part thereof, nor do we permit Space Show programs to be edited, placed on YouTube or other private channels & websites. Space Show programs can be quoted in news articles, papers, academic & research work, but must be cited or referenced using the proper citation format. Contact Dr. Livingston for questions about our copyright and trademark policies which we do enforce. For this Classroom Space Show two hour program, we welcomed Dr. Paul Spudis and Dr. Jim Vedda for a comprehensive discussion on the importance of undertaking Cislunar space development as a major focus of U.S. space policy. Our program was in two equal segments but since our topics crossed segments, our summary will reflect the entire program, not each segment. Also, at the end of this summary, I have listed several relevant URLs for cislunar space development and our guests. If you want more information on the subject, I suggest you visit the recommended websites and blogs. Our guests described cislunar space for us and did an excellent job in letting us know why it is important to focus on a cislunar space development program. In the process of addressing this very important issue, we talked about policy, the railroad model, the need for space infrastructure, insitu resource development and understanding, lunar water, lunar ice, lunar polar robotic exploration, the need to learn to live and behave in space, and much more. Listeners called and asked email questions that drew out both our panel members so that our discussion was sufficiently thorough. Side issues were discussed such as budget cuts, tight budgets, how to do cislunar space in a belt tightening environment, small businesses and contractors, even sequestration. Our guests were very clear as to why cislunar development was much more preferable than “space stunt accomplishment” types of programs and projects. Our guests presented a good case in letting us know why cislunar development is preferable over a humans to Mars mission at this time. Another issue brought up by a listener was to ask about “Plan B” if for some reason there was no water or there was insufficient water/ice on the Moon. Dr. Spudis explained why that was not likely but both panel members talked about why cislunar development was important to even without sufficient water/ice resources on the Moon. Here are the URLs of interest I mentioned above: First, Dr. Vedda’s new book, “Becoming Spacefarers: Rescuing America’s Space Program” is at www.amazon.com/Becoming-Spacefarers-James-A-Vedda/dp/1477130918/ref=onegiantlea20. The Paris conference mentioned by Dr. Spudis is the ASTECH’s “Developing Space” Conference is at www.d-space2012.com. Dr. Spudis websites and blogs can be found at www.spudislunarresources.com; www.spudislunarresources.com/blog; http://blogs.airspacemag.com/moon. His book, “Blogging the Moon” is at www.amazon.com/Blogging-Moon-Paul-D-Spudis/dp/1926837177/ref=onegiantlea20. Other related websites of interest include www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=13404; www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=19999; www.spudislunarresources.com/Papers/The%20Vision%20and%20the%20Mission.pdf.; www.cislunarnext.org.

Please post your comments/questions on the blogs above. If you want to contact either Dr. Vedda or Dr. Spudis, you can do so through me.

Drs. Adrian LeBlanc, Thomas Lang & John Jurist, Sunday, 5-6-12 Drs. Adrian LeBlanc, Thomas Lang & John Jurist, Sunday, 5-6-12 May 6, 2012

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Drs. Adrian LeBlanc, Thomas Lang & John Jurist, Sunday, 5-6-12

NASA Bone Loss & Bisphosphonate Study

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/1769-BWB-2012-05-06.mp3

Guests: CLASSROOM: Dr. Adrian LeBlanc, Dr. Tom Lang, Dr. John Jurist. Topics: Bone loss issues for human spaceflight & the use of bisphosphonates for mitigation. You are invited to comment, ask questions, and discuss the Space Show program/guest(s) on the Space Show blog, http://thespaceshow.wordpress.com and The Space Show Classroom blog, https://spaceshowclassroom.wordpress.com. Comments, questions, and any discussion must be relevant and applicable to Space Show programming. Transcripts of Space Show programs are not permitted without prior written consent from The Space Show (even if for personal use) & are a violation of the Space Show copyright. In addition, at the end of this summary, you will find links to relevant papers for our discussion as provided us by Dr. Lang. We welcomed Dr. Adrian LeBlanc, Dr. Tom Lang and Dr. John Jurist as co-host to discuss the NASA bisphosphonate and bone loss study in progress. Dr. LeBlanc along with his associate in Japan, Dr. Toshio Matsumoto, are leading this study and Dr. Lang is part of the team. We started our discussion with Dr. LeBlanc providing us with a brief historical overview of bone loss issues of concern to NASA since the early days of the space program. We talked about Skylab, Mir, the use of the DEXA scan, the use of quantitative computer tomography (QTC) and CT scans through to the ISS, Space Shuttle, and current research projects. Our discussion was technical at times so if you need to look up or Google a technical term, please do so. In addition, we had some audio issues with the phone line used by Dr. LeBlanc as he faded in and out from time to time. We apologize for any inconvenience this might have caused. The first segment went through the bone loss issues, problems, consequences, & the methodologies involved in analyzing the conditions encountered by the astronauts participating in these studies. Issues we discussed included the use of prescription drugs in space, long term use of bisphosphonates, risk factors for spontaneous hip fractures, exercise programs, bone strength, bone mass, the impact of radiation, skeletal recovery back on Earth after spaceflight to something different than before the spaceflight took place as well as the implications for astronauts as they age. We talked about using artificial gravity to mitigate bone loss. You might be surprised to learn that using partial gravity may not help matters. Bisphosphonates do seem to help and will possibly play a role with exercise as we move to long duration spaceflight but we are in the very early stages of fact finding on these issues. We also discussed informed consent with the astronauts regarding their participation in these and other experiments.

In the second segment, a listener asked about the relevance of this type of space research to the taxpayer who funds it and to the general population. Our three guests responded to this question, explaining why the research is relevant and important. Don’t miss their answers. We then talked about following the astronauts here on Earth to see the continued impact of having been in space on their bones as they age. We learned that bone changes after being in space for four weeks or more and it is important to follow these changes as part of the aging process. Our guests talked about calcium excretion issues in space and the risk this causes for a renal stones. Bisphosphonates may inhibit calcium excretion which would help mitigate this risk. Near the end of our discussion, we learned about new medications being developed that are more advanced than the bisphosphonates we have today. We also talked about the competition with astronauts for different scientific experiments. As Dr. Jurist pointed out, we really do need lots more human spaceflight! At the end a listener asked about bed rest studies and our guests provided us with the basics. If you are interested, visit https://bedreststudy.jsc.nasa.gov. Our guests made important closing comments and take away points.

Please post comments/questions on The Space Show and Classroom blogs.

Dr. Lang provided us with these links that will be of interest to us all. These documents can be accessed without a subscription to the journals. These papers provide some background to the problem of bone loss in spaceflight, the recovery of bone after spaceflight and use of CT and the use of CT-based finite element modeling to assess bone loss.

Cortical and Trabecular Bone Mineral Loss From the Spine and Hip in Long-Duration Spaceflight http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/JBMR.040307/full

Adaptation of the Proximal Femur to Skeletal Reloading After Long-Duration Spaceflight http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1359/jbmr.060509/full

Reduction in proximal femoral strength due to long-duration spaceflight http://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=0zFSO9sAAAAJ&cstart=20&citation_for_view=0zFSO9sAAAAJ:4DMP91E08xMC

Click on link on right “[PDF] from http://cof.org.cn ” for free pdf copy of the report.